Ep. 10 - Kim Wehle, what if? Hard talk for a hard moment in American history

Constitutional law expert Kim Wehle on how the Supreme Court abolished the guardrails to Trump in a second term

“I’m very sensitive that what I say scares people, and I’m not trying to scare people, but if we don’t hear it we can’t do anything about it” — Kim Wehle

That is the level of seriousness we discussed in today’s pod. (And to be clear, that is strictly a hypothetical — though it is something Trump’s top advisers are threatening will happen to Democrats and prosecutors.)

For the latest episode of The Ground Game, we brought on a constitutional law expert to cut through the noise and the bluster.

Kim Wehle

is the author of Simple Politics on Substack, multiple books on the courts and the Constitution, including her latest, “Pardon Power.” She teaches law at the University of Baltimore, is a contributor to ABC News and

The Bulwark

and brings clarity in some very uncertain times in our nation’s history.

Make sure to subscribe, comment and share and support independent journalism. Patrick and I are out in the trenches every day, reporting, looking for the answers so you, the 24sight family, are informed and confident. As you’ll hear here, we don’t shy away from anything, no tip-toeing or hiding, just hard news delivered straight to you.

Show notes:

Opening downs - 1’ - 23’

• Intro

• The Trump Cabinet picks

• Will Trump use the military domestically on deportations?

• Should Biden preemptively pardon Trump’s targets?

• The shape of the Senate

Huddle up: Kim Wehle - 23’

• A thought exercise with the students, the guardrails of democracy

• After Trump v. U.S., “the guardrails are gone”

• “The Supreme Court has now said he can retaliate at will”

• xx

• “What’s the disincentive? … I’m not seeing the tickets for speeding through the Constitution right now”

• Trump has said he wants jail Nancy Pelosi, prosecute Kamala Harris. But he also gets angry at his own aides, like Steve Bannon in 2017, could he imprison someone who falls out of favor, hypothetically, like Elon Musk?

• “Using the criminal justice system to go after enemies in a way where there isn’t any there there, is possible and could have a chilling effect”

• “There has to be some due process under the Constitution before you can just be picked up and put in jail”

• Supreme Court has ruled that if Trump is using core powers he is above the law

• “If he were to direct a military officer to arrest Elon Musk and just get in a black van and disappear, what can be done about that?”

• “The correct question is ‘What’s the consequence?’ And if there is no consequence, he can do it”

• Could Trump use the military to enact deportations on domestic soil?

• Lawsuits could attempt to block, and under military code the enlisted — and higher up, the officers — take an oath to the Constitution. They would be duty bound to follow the Constitution

• The massive power of the Justice Department and electronic surveillance could create a culture of fear throughout the country

• Will the press stop covering Trump in an honest way?

• There is no hiding under a rock in this moment

• If you’ve got a lump in your neck, and you don’t get it checked because you think it might go away, it will metastasize and you’ll die before you get to the oncologist.

• “I’m very sensitive that what I say scares people, and I’m not trying to scare people, but if we don’t hear it we can’t do anything about it”